Stuart Anderson: Full Episode Transcript

The knock that changed the case

0:00My heart started to sink cuz I had a really bad feeling that this was not what I should have been doing. This is not where I what I thought this was all about. And sure enough, he stood up abruptly, the older gentleman, and he handed me a piece of paper, and I took it, and I looked at it. Federal target letter. And it just hit me, and my blood ran out of my [laughter]

0:21my body. I went from like 98.6 to like 2°. I was just absolutely devastated. And he looked up at him, and he got up abruptly. And literally, the minute I looked at it, they just stood up real quick. Don't talk to anybody. We'll be in touch. And they walked out the door, and I'm just standing there with my mouth open.

0:41What happens when your worst fear becomes [music] your reality? Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy. Welcome to the Nightmare Success and You podcast, where we explore how to overcome your fears and nightmares and set yourself free. We're going to be exploring [music] this topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with, and others who survived their own nightmare. These stories can [music] be inspiring, sometimes sad. There's some humor, but hopefully you can come [music] away with a nugget of something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you've built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back. Nightmare Success and You listeners, this is where you come for what happens when your worst fear becomes your reality. How do you adapt, survive, overcome, set yourself free?

1:21And folks, don't forget to follow, subscribe, share this thing out, like it up, comment. It really helps the show, and I very much appreciate it. So, who are we talking to you today on Nightmare Success? Well, I am talking to a guy that I know he's actually part of the we're both part of the white-collar support group, and he caught my attention one night when we were on there, and he was saying he was talking about when things happened, and he was a he was an attorney, and they just the FBI just wanted to come over and talk, and he let them in, and he said, you know, "What was I thinking? I'm an attorney." And I was thinking, you know, "Stewart's probably got a pretty interesting story." and he does.

1:57So, just give a little background on it. So, what happens when you spend your career understanding the law and then suddenly you find yourself on the other side of it? Well, Stewart Anderson was a successful attorney and business professional with more than two decades of experience navigating courtrooms contracts negotiations complex legal matters. Then his life took a turn he never imagined. Stewart became involved in a multi-million dollar investment fraud case. He pleaded guilty. He was sentenced to 4 years in federal prison and eventually lost everything he'd spent years building. His license to practice law was gone. But Stewart's story didn't end there with a conviction. Today, he's taken his legal knowledge, his business experience, his first-hand understanding of the justice system, and turned them into a new purpose. As vice president of research, education programs at the Justice Restoration Founda- Foundation. I had a hard time saying that. Justice Restoration Foundation.

2:52He's working on justice reform, government accountability, second chances, and the consequences that can follow someone long after a prison sentence is over. Today, we're going to be talking about the fall federal prison, losing identity, rebuilding a life, and what Stewart now sees about our justice system that he probably never could understand from outside on the other side of the courtroom. before we jump into that, I want to get into and recognize our show sponsor Autoplaza Direct. You know who likes spending a couple weekends walking car lots looking for a car and then you spend 4 or 5 hours at a dealership to buy a car? It's kind of like a root canal appointment. Well, there's a better way to take away all that pain and hassle getting a car. It's called Autoplaza Direct. They're your personal car concierge. Just tell them the car you want, what you can pay, and they'll go find that car for you, and negotiate your best price. They also offer you warranties and finances. All full service. Go to autoplazadirect.com to get started with your personal concierge. The new hassle-free way to car buying experience you deserve.

3:47Autoplaza Direct, tell them Brett from Nightmare Success sent You know, we a lot about the rebuilding after incarceration on this show. Finding a job, contributing to community, finding purpose, but I recently came across a book that reframes the entire conversation the way many haven't considered. It's called Second Chance Economics by Neven Shetty, and it just debuted as a number one new release on Amazon. This isn't a book about criminal justice reform. It's a book about economic potential. Shetty starts with an overlooked reality. There are 80 million Americans with a criminal record. That's a massive underutilized talent pool, and one whose barriers to employment cost our economy a staggering 1.2 trillion a year.

4:28What I love about this book is the approach. Shetty uses data to show how second chance hiring isn't just a social good. It's a competitive advantage. It lowers turnover, fills labor gaps, and creates a virtuous cycle of growth. Whether you're a business leader, a policy maker, or someone who believes in reframing the narrative around justice-impacted individuals, Second Chance Economics is a must-read. Pick up your copy today on Amazon. Stewart Anderson, how are you, my man? Yeah, how you doing, friend? Welcome in. Thanks.

Early losses before the federal case

4:59Welcome in. So, yeah, we just before we got on here, it was like two old guys trying to figure out how to hear each other with the audio, and we figured it all out. So, we're happy. Got us We got it fixed, Stewart. So, Stewart, yeah, and then I want to talk about the book you're writing and all the other stuff, but let's go back. What Where did you grow up, and what was life like for little Stewart? With mom, dad, siblings. Where'd all that happen?

5:28Well, I've had the It's been a lot of movement as a child. Broken family. I was born in Peshawar, Pakistan, which is the same place that they took out bin Laden. My dad was in the Air Force. he had married an English woman, and so he took her as part of, you know, doing your military stuff. He was based there. And that's where I was born. At the age of about 2 and 1/2, moved back to the States. My dad came back. So you wouldn't have remembered Pakistan at all then.

6:02No, and it's funny cuz my mom said that I understood the servants cuz they spoke Urdu. So I could understand them and all that. And I bet you if you were to put me in a trance or something, I probably could you know, remember that type of thing. But the you know, there's cobras and mongoose, your typical fights. That's real. All that stuff was real back then. So I don't remember that. Yeah, I the first thing I remember as a little kid a little baby almost I have flashbacks of being in Maryland. So that's where my dad went back to. He was in the Air Force and ended up getting a because he was in like an Air Force Intelligence Signal Corps, the typical route after that he went into the NSA. So my dad worked for the NSA. They were divorced not too long after I we got back. And then I lived with my It was weird. I kind of bounced around a little bit between the two and then my dad got remarried and I moved in with him and my stepmother.

6:59What age would you have been when that happened? Cuz I think divorce is such a confusing thing for kids cuz the reason I say that, Stewart, is my parents were married for 48 years. And then they got a divorce when I'm an older guy and that was difficult. So I can't imagine cuz I didn't think it would really actually be difficult. But then [laughter]

7:21I thought as things got all unraveled, it was a mess. But as a kid, how old did you say you were as a kid?

7:28Well, I mean, I didn't really know what was going on. I was young. I was probably four. Three, four when that was going on. When that happened.

7:37a lot of flux going on. So obviously it's going to have an impact you know, on a child as opposed to being your age or someone who's a teenager and your parents get divorced. That has a direct psychological, oh my gosh, you know, what's going on? My life My life is going to change.

7:53But this did have reverberating issues with moving around a lot. My father passed away right before my 11th birthday. Wow, so you were young. Yeah. Siblings? Did you have brothers and sisters? half brother. Yeah. Okay.

8:09Who consequently also now works for the NSA. So I guess that connection got him in there. Followed through.

8:17Kind of, yeah. Not doing the same thing my dad did, but still it's impressive. he's doing pretty well there. Younger, he's younger than I am. I was getting ready right before this happened in February of like '78. So I was getting ready to go live with my mom anyway that following summer. It There was It's a long story there, but it was kind of little volatile with the stepmothers. So it was I was going to go live with my mom anyway, but it didn't need to go that route because when he passed, it was a car accident. Police officers coming to the door knocking on the middle of the night, snowing out. And then, you know, it was very that was traumatic. Now you want to talk about close? That's trauma. Yeah.

9:00Were you as a 11-year-old kid, were you close with your dad?

9:05I mean, I loved my dad. I wish I would have known him more like if you grow up with your dad and he's taking you fishing and you're doing stuff or you're an adult that can look him in the eye and have these conversations. I never had a chance to have that. When you're that young, it's like that's dad. It's not Hey dad. It's not a real deep relationship in that sense, but obviously it affected me. I loved my father. And so I was whisked out of there within a few weeks and I was living with my mom and that was it. Barely got out of there with any of my toys, anything that was like attached. And then we were estranged from the from that side of the family until I took it on my own to go back out there as a young adult and re-couple our relationship with very traumatic.

9:52So, there's a lot of moving around. So, then I moved down to Virginia Beach area in Virginia and that's where I really quote unquote grew up. So, basically fifth grade all the way through a couple years in community college. which is good. It was more stability. Yeah, we moved around a lot within the area, but I went People don't realize this, not bouncing around too many schools. Elementary's I did when we were when my dad was still alive, but once I got situated in fifth and sixth grade elementary into junior high and high school, those were all complete completed. You know what I'm saying? It was all

10:28Yeah, you weren't jumping around. I you know, you when you say that isn't actually hard for me to understand. My mom always would fix up houses. She had this unique ability, talent to fix up houses and so within the same area the same school district we moved five times. Always moving into another house that she would fix up and then we'd move, but we always stayed in the school district.

10:51Very similar in a way. Yeah, exactly. That type of thing that you're talking about bouncing around different places.

10:58Yeah. Which now as an adult I hate to move cuz we move so much.

11:02I'm like an old man now like, you know what? Like say, "Why are we still here? This I'm like, "Man, I don't like the change."

11:10So, Stuart, the Virginia Beach area, I don't know the Virginia Beach area, but I've heard of the Virginia Beach area. Is that Was that a great good place to be as a kid? I mean, growing up I had a great time. Yeah.

11:22I surfed. So, it's right there at the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. So, you have a lot of historical things there. I'm a big Civil War buff, so and you have everything from the Revolutionary War, Jamestown, the starting of our country. I mean, all that the history is really deep there. Mhm.

11:39Surfing, going down to North Carolina to surf in Outer Banks. I was just a blast. I was just having a great time. However, with a single mom, and she was troubled in a way. She had her own issues as far as struggling as a hairdresser to raise me, couple boyfriends here and there.

12:00the stability wasn't there. Like you talk about your parents you know being together for so long. There's something to be said about that, and I made it a I'm making it a conscious effort. Not that I have any problems with my wife. My son is not going to go through what I went through. I It is such a formation issue to have stability in the family, to have the mother, father. I mean, that's one of the reasons why we have so many problems in the country today with so many divorced people, so many broken families. And I it does have an impact. It does to me it has to be an excuse to not do the right thing as a person. But, it has an impact. It absolutely has an impact on the growth of the child. I was So, bringing that back around, that not having that kind of structure, it was a free for all. I could do whatever I wanted to do. I was doing stuff that if I let my kid do it, I'd beat them.

12:47There's just no way that I would do That was a kid and I'm like, "Woohoo! I can do whatever. We're going out late." You know, doing all kinds of stuff, drugs, and all this stuff. And of course, when you're talking about the early '80s, that was all prevalent anyway. but I was like a ship in the sea without a sail. Just Doing whatever.

13:07fun thing, blah. It wasn't until this like my junior year of high school that I started to wake up and realize, "Man, all my friends are looking like they're going to colleges and this that and the other." And I'm sitting here worrying about surfing and partying and whatever kind of attitude. Not that I'm not smart enough. Not that I couldn't get good grades. But, I would did not have that kind of structure. And then I finally woke up and went, "Oh man, I better start getting my act together." So I actually started getting good grades, but it was not enough at that point to overcome the fact that I had been screwing up for so long. Not failing, but not good. I mean, I should be AB student, not some B's, a C, D, you know what I mean? It's that kind of a

13:47it's pretty I think it's pretty amazing, Stewart, that you figured that out on your own without somebody else saying, "Hey Hey, you need to get your act together." You kind of figured it out on your own by looking around and seeing what your friends and everybody were getting and planning on doing. That's right. Yeah.

14:04I mean, I had people I've got not acquaintances, let's say friends, but I'm still attached to them here and there. They're high executives in like Sony or Samsung or they went to Harvard or, you know, these types of things, you know, large banking firms, etc. So I'm looking at that and I'm like, "Well, I got to go to college." So I got into the local community college there. And then I fell right back into the same thing. Met some friends there and they were all about partying and I wasn't really focusing on school again. Just kind of floating through. Met a girl who was like a year behind me in high school and she was in one of my classes. And I met her one summer down at the beach cuz I worked down at the beach.

14:50And we ended up falling in love. Unfortunately, after several months, her father was a Navy SEAL who was not really retiring as a Navy SEAL, but what they do is they'll reallocate themselves. And he was going into the EOD, which would be underwater demolition type thing, for training and that sort of thing. There's two SEAL bases. There's a Little Creek, which is near Norfolk, near Virginia Beach, and there's what The other one is in San Diego. And so they were moving back to San Diego. She didn't want to go. She wanted to stay with me, but the parents basically were telling her, and this is no offense to me. I liked her parents. Well, you're on your own. You're going to have to deal with You're going to have to live on your own then because we're going, and if you want to stay, and I told her, "No, no, you go.

15:38Just go. I'll come out that following December during that break and check out some colleges and such, and then if it all works out, I'll come back out the next summer. I'll move out." Okay.

15:51And that's what I did. I went out there, spent like a month, checked out San Diego State and the community college there, and that sort of thing, and started lining some things up, and then the following summer, that's what I did. I like to use the old Beverly Hills packed up the truck and moved to Beverly. Moved to Beverly.

16:08Yeah, packed up I had a little U-Haul, the smallest little box one you can get that you attach to your 1979 Honda Accord hatchback, which had no business, by the way, pulling anything. Packed up with a little bit of stuff I had, and I drove across country. And what

16:24And that was the beginning of a new life. I mean, I basically left everything behind, and in a way I needed to do that because I was stagnating there anyway. I needed to get away from that environment. As much as I love Virginia, there is a set and I'm not trying to for anybody who's from Virginia, I'm not being disre- disrespectful. It still has a good old boy old school old family connecting type thing. Almost think of the antebellum Yeah. pre-Civil War thing. There's still a semblance of that. bit of that, yeah. Kind of. What's the roots?

17:00So, unless you're like in that yeah, it's very stagnating in some respects. And so, coming to California, especially after I came out here to check it out, and I surf, so of course I'm like in heaven. I'm like pulling up in San Diego. I'm like, "Gosh, you're living in San Diego. It's like I'm on vacation forever. Palm trees, I'm surfing in Mexico, perfect waves. I'm like, you know, this is fantastic. So, that is when least back then California still had that can-do state. Like this is the place you can go and you can do you can make anything of yourself. So, it was like a rebirth for me at that point.

17:38So, you went to I think if I remember you went to San Diego State, didn't you?

17:42Yeah, I went to community college for first because like I said my grades were trash coming out of the other community college. So, I had to kind of revamp, basically redo it, right? So, yes, I did that, transferred into San Diego State, and graduated from San Diego State. So, that was great experience. Now, I had to work the whole time. Yeah.

18:02I always felt a little bit jealous because including when I went to law school, you know, you have the kids whose you know, parents are paying for it. They don't have to worry about working and they're just, you know, they're living on campus or doing their thing. Yeah.

18:15I wish I had that, but that wasn't in my cards. I had to work to survive. So, I was driving to school every day. Yeah.

18:22And then working bartending and waiting tables, you know, that was basically pay to pay rent, insurance, car, you know, the whole thing.

From paralegal to attorney

18:30Yeah, but it I mean it teaches you a lot though. I mean it's for people that do that they learn so much about what it takes to get by and how you know, how to actually plan and knock tasks out so that you can get things going and done. I'm curious, sir, what was it that drove you to choose law school? If your dad wasn't an attorney, a lot of times kids that are dads are attorneys, they just become attorneys or whatever the case might be.

18:57I think other than just as a background, other than I believe one of my cousins, my dad's brother's son, who's like a brilliant like scientist out of University of Wisconsin out of Madison or something. Other than him, I think I'm the only person that had a degree, if not an advanced degree. Yeah, okay.

19:19So, when I finished up San Diego State, I was looking at I've always been a military buff, into military strategy, history, that sort of thing. I still am. I love that stuff. And I always wanted to go into the military. I wanted to go in there as an officer. So, obviously, when I got my degree, I was looking at seeing if I could go in. So, I was talking to a recruiter about that close to when I was about to graduate, 6 months before or whatever. And they were pushing back. He was actually pushing me back and said, "Nah, we're not really I'm paraphrasing. We're really not taking people Well, you know, no." He was pushing back on me even going in, like they had enough or I don't I can't remember the exact thing, but it turned me off to where I was like, "Well, I guess I'm not going to do that. What am I going to do now?" Right?

20:05If I'm going to get a I had a political science history major. And that's me. One of my political science Yeah, oh yeah. I had political science theater. Oh, [snorts] theater.

20:15Yeah, cuz I thought, you know, I'd be in the courtroom and all I see. Yeah.

20:20So, anyway, couldn't do that. And maybe it's a good thing cuz I would've been in the Gulf War or Afghanistan 100%. Yeah.

20:26And I'm look, I'm a patriot. I would definitely have no problem with that. But now that we know what we know, a lot of that stuff was nonsense and I think it was a waste for a waste of lives, waste of a lot of things, but that's a whole other story. so I'm trying to decide what I want to do. And I needed to get on something immediately. My grades, even out of college, were not that spectacular. Again, I was partying, working. I'm just trying to get a degree at that point, right? And my grades weren't that great. So, I couldn't go straight into a law school with that scenario. And so, now I'm starting to strategize again. I said, "You know what? The University of San Diego, which is the private Catholic school in town had a paralegal certification course. I believe it was one or two year course and I decided, you know what?

21:18I can't go straight into law school, but I could be a paralegal. And so I did that. Good training, too.

21:23Yep, I did that. I did absolutely my grades were stellar. I was getting A's in that and I really the civil litigation stuff was just right up my alley and I hit it off really well with one of the professors there who was an attorney and I became close friends with him. He would take me flying in his plane and we'd go do stuff. So I get done with my paralegal and then I have to get a job. So I'm looking around to get a job in San Diego or as a paralegal and I didn't I couldn't get anything there and then I saw was able to get connected with a personal injury firm all the way up in Long Beach, California. So from San Diego to Long Beach. And that is the famous Larry H. Parker. I don't know if you're aware of him.

22:03He's one of the first attorneys to do that online personal injury stuff that's everywhere now. I'll fight for you. If you've been injured in an accident, you can call 1-800 I'll help you whatever that is. So I'm like, whatever. A job's a job. I got the job. I moved up to Orange County, California and I would drive in like carpools with people who also live in North County to Long Beach every day. And I worked like three years as a paralegal there realizing that, you know, I could be an attorney. This is ridiculous. I don't want to be in a paralegal. I'm just I'm seeing what the attorneys do there and I'm like, really? I can do that.

22:40And plus I'm like, my strategy was I would get in order to make up for my grades, let me start working. Now I have working background and this is what I did. I got my working background and then I had my professor at USD who ran several of the classes in the paralegal program do a letter recommendation to me and I did a letter to the school. my LSATs were okay. And I got in. And I was like one of the biggest things in my You know, I wish I came from a wealthy family, but it's like I got to do what I got to do. And so I got in. Yeah. There you go. That's your long story of how I got into law

23:17no. I mean, that's crazy and great. I mean, it's one of those stories where you landed right where you've, you know, wanted to be. It just it took you kind of roundabout way. So, you get out what are you thinking? After law school? Yeah.

23:35Well, I clerked at a couple places while I was in law school, but I also had to work while I was in law school. So, now I'm going back to waiting tables again. And one of the clerk jobs they were like 10 bucks an hour. It wasn't much money, but I had to pay for rent and I had to pay for You have to I'm like trying to live. Here's a guy who has got no money.

23:54still have the Navy SEAL daughter that's there or did you guys break up? Yeah, that That's always I didn't You got That got you out there.

24:02That's always the yeah. That's one of the heartbreaking things. to be careful, too, with a Navy SEAL dad too.

24:08He was a great guy. Honestly, he liked me a lot. It had nothing to do They were actually really sad because she kind of broke up with me. It wasn't very pleasant. and they felt really bad cuz they all their whole family I really liked them. They were Filipino. The dad was a American. Yeah.

24:26But the she's like Filipino. And I love the Filipino culture. I love their family, very loving. And they really felt really bad for me, but there was nothing You know, it's like what are they going to do? Their daughter doesn't want to be with you anymore. What are you going to do? I was heartbroken because I had gone all the way out there, changed my entire life, completely decoupled from everything. Dude, there was no going back. Mom wanted to do her own thing. Dude, there was no going back at that point. And whatever happened out there is what happened. And then all of a sudden you have a rug pulled out from you, the person that you're with. You're already not very stable anyway. You're trying to keep your act together, trying to survive and get the school going, and then that happens. It was like devastating.

25:07But I survived. And I had other girlfriends and whatever, you know, that life goes on, but it was not at the time you don't think about it. like the biggest thing in your life at the time, I'm sure.

25:16Exactly. Yeah. It's like very traumatic. You know, and then I'm like abandoned again, you know, I'm like, oh, here we go, I'm abandoned again. But it I worked itself out. It worked itself out. Yeah.

25:26So you get out of college, what are you thinking? Are you thinking that you want to go the civil route and do the these you said you kind of liked that whole path, that lane. Was that your thoughts is I'm going to go out and be a big civil attorney? Yeah, cuz I believe it's when I was Contracts?

25:46Well, what I'm trying to think. when I was doing the paralegal courses before that, I did intern with the DA's office, right? So I was working with victim witness unit, helping people with TROs and in these sort of things, and I really got the chance to see how some of that side work. I wasn't really sure if I wanted to go into the criminal law stuff at that point, right? Right.

26:12Then fast forward after getting out of law school, to be honest with you, I just wanted a job. I needed a job. I mean, yeah, you have law loans on you know, I had to take loans out. You want to get things moving, and you want to make a living. One thing that was a eye-opener for me, yeah, I didn't graduate top of my class or anything. I mean, when you're so stressed out working two jobs and trying to go to law school, and what one of the things that going back to the San Diego State thing, like we have all the kids who didn't have to work, same thing when you go to law school. A lot of these I was a little bit older now, right? Some of these kids are like right out of college going to law school. I had worked for a few years, so I'm going back a little bit older. But, Mhm.

26:53you know, people driving up in BMWs and all this stuff and they didn't They were all non-stressed and we'd go out and have drinks. And I yeah, they're doing it. And I'm like, I got to I got I got to I've got to get to work.

27:03to live. So, I got a little bit I got a little bit angry. I was like, why am I always killing myself? I'm the one that's like come from a poor family. I'm like struggling to kind of make it and they're just like, and then law school I'm going to do this and I got a job in this firm. And it's like, wow. It never worked out that way for me. It was always a struggle. So, I thought, hey, if I get this law degree, it's going to open the doors and I can I'm going to get a six-figure job and I'm going to blah. That's not how it works. It's not how it works. Now, it doesn't mean it can't work for some people. I mean, if you go to Yale, Harvard, top of your class, does it give you an opportunity to get into certain places? Yes. Sure.

27:41But, that's not the You ask the majority of people that come out of a law school, it's very disheartening. You'd be surprised. You know, you get 4 years of law school and you come out and they go, oh yeah, we'll pay you 60,000 a year or 50,000. You're like, 50,000? [laughter]

27:54What am I might as well go dig a ditch. I can make more money digging a freaking ditch. So, there's that whole aspect of it. A little disheartening and working in some of the larger firms, like when I was clerking, I worked at some very prestigious firms in San Diego.

28:10Mhm. Oh, that's what I was wondering if those paralegal firms that you met at that time ended up to be opportunities to work at.

28:17When I was clerking as a law student, I worked at a couple of two different firms. One was a pretty high-end personal injury. The guy was very famous, knew the Clintons and all this kind of stuff, the main attorney. And the other one was a very large firm that is also pretty powerful. So, I was dealing with a lot of these attorneys. And to be honest with you, I think I wanted to get the law degree so that I had the degree because it was going to open the doors. Did I have a passion for becoming an attorney to do that? No. And after working at some of these firms, a lot of these attorneys are just they're [ __ ] I mean, there's their whole life is about that. And the amount of divorces and all that in there because all they care about is this thing and it's like I'm more of a balanced person. I don't want to be that way, but I was already in it. I have to pay my student loans and everything else. I mean, I got to be an attorney. I went to law school.

29:11Now that I know what I know, I could have easily taken my law degree and work for a company and maybe their contracts division or something like that. Sure.

29:18And I would have done very well and had a balanced life, no billable hours, no none of the stress. Yeah, just be an in-house guy.

29:25100% but I didn't I wasn't I didn't know that at the time. So I ended up getting a job up back up in Orange County after law I went so I went back down to San Diego obviously for law school and then I went back to Orange County and I got a job up in Orange County and I've lived up here ever since. So, that's kind of

29:45Yeah, no, that's and you you're a California guy. I mean, you grew up in Virginia and then you become a California guy and now take us to where you get into when the where the nightmare landed on you. and you're working with some guys that are doing really well and I think it's in the real estate world, right?

30:04It's a little convoluted. I was So, I worked at a law firm to a couple law firms as a as an associate and then I decided that I wanted to not do that anymore. I actually walked into the partner's office because I wasn't getting the support. I didn't like the attitude. They put me in some positions I wasn't really happy to be in and I just had to not I was really stressed out. I walked in and I said Ready for a

30:32I don't want to do this I don't want to do this anymore and he's and he was taken aback. What do you mean? You know, I bring in $3 million. I make a million dollars Well, you're a partner. I make a million dollars. It's a grind. This whole thing it's a grind. You just got to grind it out. I'm like, yeah, you want me so that's really motivating. You want me to kill myself. It is very motivating. Grind it out. You get three weeks vacation, but you have like 2,000 you know, 2,000 billing hours whatever. If you do the math, you're never going to take any vacation. It's just impossible with the billable hours. So, it just a complete grind, complete lack of respect, just a whole thing. I finally got to my end of my rope.

31:11And my girlfriend told me, who's my wife now, she's like, Stu, we'll figure it out. Just let it go. And she took me to Palm Desert. we got on a air balloon ride. And I remember being up there and just like taking this air balloon up and I really appreciated her for that cuz I had to just let it go. It was really destroying me. And look, some people love that stuff. Some people are made for that. And some things about the things I was doing at the time I liked, right? But not that. So, I ended up getting my real estate broker's license. I started doing a little bit of real estate and still doing some legal stuff on the side. I was working with a couple of attorneys I would do some like trials with, help them out, you know, work on some things. One of them wanted me to come on board but he was going to pay me like 50 grand. I'm like, guys, you're killing me. So, I'm like, I'd rather make my own money if it's going to be that. So, I started getting my real estate broker's license and this is where it got tied in with what you're talking about. Mhm.

32:12I end up having a partner. We formed various companies. More like brokering for project financing, that sort of thing. And also we formed a company that was a commodity company in which he ended up going to Zambia and we set up a company in Zambia for him to start moving manganese, copper, a lot of money to be made. So like doing that. So, I had all that going on. Not so much the real estate anymore, but I still have my broker's license. Everything was fine. Still had my law license and I was doing a few things. I had a few clients of my own that I was wrapping up. And I decided one more thing cuz I'm crazy. I decided to get my insurance licenses. And I had another partner and we decided that we were going to open up a commercial brokerage for commercial real estate.

33:01And in order to do that, we decided the quickest way was to buy a book of business from Farmers. So people who were retiring and they had got a book of business and you can buy that through Farmers. They have a whole process. So we're we were negotiating with Farmers. I had gotten my insurance licenses and I'm thinking this is going to be a great additional avenue amongst the other things that I was working on. While all of this is going on, I got contact with some brokers that I had been working with over the years who we were looking at some transaction and one of the main guys says, "Stu, you have your law license. Could you do some escrow work?" And I said, "Well, tell me more about it." So he told me about it and I said, "Yeah, just attorney escrow, you know, there'd be a contract between a couple parties and money would come to me and then whatever is fulfilled, I would wire out the money wherever they want me to and I make a small fee on it, 1%, 2%, whatever that amount is." Okay. For whatever code Okay.

33:56Yeah. And so I'm doing all this to say that's like a little side thing. It was like, yeah, why not? It's a few bucks here and there, but I'm not really focused on that. I'm focused on the insurance company we're getting going and some of the commodity stuff that's going on, right? Really wasn't practicing law, so to speak. I wasn't doing that. I was kind of pulling away from

34:12setting up some escrows and getting a little bit percentage each on the ones. was a side thing. When you think about it. Yeah.

34:18And I did that for about 4 years where they would call me up. Hey, I got a transaction. Okay, send me the contracts. A lot of times you'll have the other parties counsel call me. Parties would call you know, we'd have a little conference call that check me out. Everything's fine. And that was going on and off. So sometimes I would get one month, I'd get nothing for 3 months, they call me up and then I get two. It wasn't like a continuous ongoing, it was every now and then, right? While still

34:41just there a You were just there attorney on call whenever they needed you to do tasks.

34:45There was no attorney-client relationship. I didn't I was just just their escrow guy whenever they needed that done.

34:52That's it. yeah. And there were some things that were going on, they weren't performing under their contracts, which I had nothing to do with what they were doing. And I was questioning that. I even had somebody attack my bar license because they weren't getting paid or something. And I had to go to the bar and explain, here is my role, this is what I did. I mean, literally documented it hardcore with tabs and of all the evidence. And the bar is like, yeah, you're you didn't do anything. There's no attorney relationship, you're not doing anything wrong. And so, but right then and there right there is when I should have said, I'm done. I just got exposed to something.

35:26you thought there were And what was it you thought was a red flag?

35:29What they were doing, if I can explain it briefly, is they And I I'll talk about it in generality so it I'm not going to get too bogged down.

35:37No, I mean, cuz you were saying that was a point a documented point of time that you thought maybe I should just exit out of here. I was curious what that was that you were The fact red flag that hit

35:48Well, the fact that I got my bar license attacked. That they tried that if a one of the clients of theirs under one of these escrows was coming after me because they were not paid back by this company. I got it.

36:02So, that's when I should have said, well, now I was told by them, no, everything's fine. And I'm being a [ __ ] it away.

36:10But they were also dangling a carrot. And this is where I'm going to take full responsibility. They were dangling a carrot and there's a lot of these larger international transactions that I was on the phone with bankers, I was on the phone with like large project things that in the long run I would have been brought on board more as a partner on doing those things. This was like a little side thing that he's like, "Ah, don't worry about that. We're going to work These are just ankle biters." That's what he used to say. "They're just ankle biters. I got to take care of it. Don't worry. blah blah." And of course, I'm busy with the insurance thing. I'm busy with the other stuff. So, it's kind of like one of these annoyances, but once that bar thing happened, I should have just said, "No, I'm done." Done with that.

36:50And so, that's my fault. So, there's that's a huge red flag, obviously. But then there was some more that were becoming and I was questioning cuz they were saying, "Hey, we're not getting paid." What would happen in a general sense is that they would contract with a party and say the party had, let's say You have $100,000 and you need to create capital for whatever you're doing. Doesn't matter. And you need $400,000. Mhm.

37:15You're telling you're going to give them the $100,000 and they're going to give you the $400,000 over time. It's a Now, anybody with the right mind would say, "So, you want me to give you $100,000. You're going to give me back $400,000. That's better than you can do on a anywhere else. You can do it." Whatever their mechanism is. Well, I'm not going to give you $100,000 unless I have insurance that my $100,000 is safe. Right. Some kind of collateral. said, "Fine." Some kind of guarantee.

37:39And they did. They had bonds, standby letters of credit, bank comfort letters. They had this stuff that they would give them. So, just think of it that as their We'll call that the insurance policy. Mhm.

37:50They contract. Money comes into my account. They give them their insurance policy. Once they confirm the insurance policy, they're done. The guy who's going to be handling the funds would then direct me to wire funds out wherever and I'm done. I get a fee. Boom. Now, over time, they could use me for the money to come back into pay them out or they could pay I don't have any say on that. I did a few times I did that, but most of the time I didn't I mean, it was more money for me if it comes back through my account right? Mhm.

38:23That's how the mechanism worked. Well, it got to a point where they weren't performing on some of the other ones and there's a really big one out of Vegas. I'll say really big, couple million dollars or something. And the guy was threatening me, the client, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, we got Guido on them." I'm dealing with Vegas, I'm going to get killed. I don't know what to And he's threatening All I was doing was connected collecting a little fee here.

A lawyer on the other side of the system

38:49That's And he was getting very angry and he was like literally threatening over the emails. And I was telling him "I can go to the FBI with it. What are you doing?" I said, "If you have an issue, go to the authorities." "I have nothing to do with it. I'm What they're doing, I don't know what they're doing. If they're not performing or Well, it turned out that the insurance policy thing that they were giving was all fake." And that was the kick. I didn't know this all the guarantees weren't really truly

39:18I think that I think initially they were because they were bonds and stuff. it got to be that it wasn't.

39:23Well, here's the thing. I had banker I had bankers contacting me from Santander out of Spain. I had the emails. These are real bankers and they were backing that stuff up. So, I'm like, "Okay, it's legit." Well, it turned out that there was an inside job at Santander. They were like, "It's all fake." that part became fake and I didn't really realize that. was a facade.

39:42Yes. And so, it became your classic Ponzi scheme scenario. So, that's where we end up. I saw the problems even after the bar thing and they kept saying, "No, no, no." And then I saw it again. I'm like, "Oh, man. I needed to walk away from that thing." And I was a I was really dumb about that. I don't know what I was thinking. I didn't need the money. Like it wasn't that big of a deal. It's like it wasn't like a ton of money. Why would I risk my insurance license, my broker license, my law license over a freaking escrow fee, right? Yeah.

40:15If I was taking in like what they did, the 5 million came through my account over a 4-year period. Came through my account, not what I got. If I always tell people of the transaction.

40:28Correct. If I was really part of the scheme, if I was really part of it, do you think risking everything I would only take a fee like that? Oh, no, I'm taking over half. I'm going to put it under my bed, and if anything goes wrong, I might go to prison, but I'm going to come out with some cash. Exactly. It's like common sense, you know what I Right. So, that's what happened.

40:50So, this takes us back, Stewart, to where we were on the white-collar support group when you were talking about that they came knocking at your door. Okay, so when they came knocking at their door, was that a complete surprise, or were you thinking, "Wait a minute, there's some really stuff that's going on here that I could get Maybe they're already investigating this?" Or when they knocked at your door, were you like, "Holy wow, okay."

41:13No, was not a surprise. I already gotten word through some of the people in there the guy I'll call it the other the company whatever that they were doing the stuff with that the FBI had been contacting people in Virginia. All this was out of the out of you knew something was going on. Yeah.

41:28Right. They were saying, "Don't talk to anybody." Well, I'm like, "What do you mean to don't talk to me? If they call me, if the FBI calls me, I have nothing to hide. I'll talk to them." Yeah.

41:37But there's the issue with this escrow out of Vegas, which was making a lot of noise. And so, the Postal Inspection Service is who came knocking on my door. Okay.

41:48Two gentlemen. And I remember it was right before 4th of July, and my son's playing PlayStation in the other room, and I'm in the kitchen tooling around, my spouse watching TV, whatever. And there's a knock on the door. Now, I'm more concerned about being served with process because of what the other company stuff that I have. So, I don't open the door. I don't answer the door. It's not like the old days where people could just walk to your house. Hey, Bob. Then here come over. No, you call before you come over. You don't just knock on the door. It's you

42:17Right. Or you text somebody before you call. All those crazy things now.

42:20somebody selling you something. Some missionary from some God forbid cult or [laughter]

42:26You know what I mean? Or it's not good. So or it's Guido ready to take out your kneecaps or something. So I'm like I'm not answering the door. So I had her answer the door. No, He's not home. Okay, here. And they handed him a card and they went away. She walks over and she goes they gave you this card. And it was on a It wasn't a card. It was like a photograph a photocopy piece of paper of a card. Like who gives a photo Yeah. Postal Inspections right

42:54Yeah, I have business cards. It's cheaper way to get new ones. Agent so and so

43:00What's this all about? I said, "Hmm." So I ran upstairs into this office and I'm like Postal Inspection Service. What is that? Right when I was trying to figure Wire fraud, mail fraud, blah. You know, I'm looking at what is this about? So I'm thinking, "Oh, I bet you this is about that escrow." Right? It's about the one in Vegas because the guy was screaming and all that stuff. Right. Right when I was thinking in the back

43:27finally went and contacted somebody is probably what you were thinking.

43:30Right. And then all of a sudden the door knocks again. they weren't being fooled at all. They knew I was there and they came right back. And I was like, "Well, I might as well answer the door." So I went down there, answered the door, and there's these two guys standing there in light blue suits, light blue skinny the skinny pants with the brown shoes. It seemed to be like the in look, at least it was Mhm.

43:51few years back, you know. Older guy and a younger guy. So there's his protege with you could tell, you know. Mr. Anderson? yeah. I know why you're here. that darn escrow out of You know, he was threatening, you know, I'm glad you're here and blah. And they're like looking at each other. Yeah, dumbass across my forehead. I'm an attorney. You don't talk to the feds like that. Not that I'm trying to get away with anything, but it's just not what you do. Now that I know. [clears throat]

44:18Yeah, come on in. Went back into the room. Hey son, can you get off the PlayStation? Had the gentleman sit on the So we start talking about the escrows. Yeah, they're here to talk about the escrows. Perfect. Tell me about this is this had a little red folder like going through documents. This person what about this? Tell me what you did that Oh yeah, blah. Just tell him exactly what my role is what these are. Oh yeah, it's nice person. Have you met this person? I only met that person. I didn't meet any of these people in this scenario. They're all The main guy was out of the country. The other people were Virginia. I think one of the guys Virginia who owned like an insurance company had come out to see his daughter in Orange County and we met for coffee one time just so he could see who I was. Nice older man probably in the 70s or something 60s 70s almost 80.

45:05But I never met anybody. It was all done online. So anyway, they're asking me these questions and next thing you know, they're like, well, didn't you see this and didn't you see the red flags and that and I was like Well, I have to admit I did see There you go. Wow.

45:20And so that it all of a sudden turned in that conversation. You're helping out think I'm just I knew within the conversation and then you immediately I realized I was in the living room. And then you saw the red flags but you continued to work with them anyway and I'm like But I remember what I said, but obviously I was just like what

45:43what was going through your mind Stuart when that flipped like that?

45:48My heart started to sink cuz I had a really bad feeling that this was not what I should have been doing. This is not where I what I thought this was all about and sure enough he stood up abruptly the older gentleman and he hand me a piece of paper. And I took it and I looked at it. Federal target letter. Stewart Anderson. blah. And it dawned on me. It just hit me and my blood ran out of my body. I mean, I went from like 98.6 to like 2°. I was just absolutely devastated. And he I look up at him and he got up abruptly. And literally, the minute I looked at it, they just stood up real quick. Don't talk to anybody. We'll be in touch. And they walked out the door and I'm just standing there with my mouth open looking at this photocopied target letter, by the way. I They love to photocopy. I don't know why they can't give me a real a lot of stuff. Yeah. And

46:43Man, and I mean, a target letter. And then we I mean, we're we should talk about it. I mean, cuz a lot of people listen to this show that maybe haven't gone through something like that. You just can't afford to just talk. Even if you're an attorney. Doesn't matter who you are. You need to get someone who specialized in this, a criminal defense attorney, to on your behalf to find out everything. But don't talk because you never know where who they're wanting to get, why they're what their motivations are. And they're professionals. And you're not a professional in that situation. and a lot of people mostly think, I just want to help. Just trying to be, you know, a good citizen. And really, you could be walking yourself into a horrible trap and you've done nothing.

47:29In this situation, I mean, they came and they just were wanting to see what you're going to say because they're planning on giving you that target letter. Let's take a break there, sir, because when we get back, I want to talk about what happens after this. How your life that moment changes forever. and how you survive prison and then what you did after you got out. Folks, I want to share with you a powerful and moving new book you won't want to miss. My name is Saffron. Voices silenced, stifled, and taken away by author Saffron Gustafson. This isn't just a story, it's a journey through resilience, survival, and reclaiming your voice after being silenced for far too long. Saffron's story takes you inside the hidden struggles, the pain, and ultimately the triumph of refusing to be defined by circumstances. As Saffron was putting the finishing touches on her book, the prison she had just been released from, Federal Dublin FCI, was permanently closed because of sexual abuse of the women prisoners.

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49:04To learn more, visit discoverability.co. It's not .com, it's .co. Listeners of Nightmare Success can take $100 off with coupon code nightmare success. And Nightmare Success Podcast is sponsored by the White Collar Support Group, the world's first support group devoted to people navigating the white collar criminal justice system. I'm a member of the White Collar Support Group, and I can tell you this is a bunch of people who help each other through the criminal justice journey for free. Whether you're just starting your journey or you've made it through to the other side, this is great space for You can join us on Zoom Monday 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time. For more information, go to prisonest.org. It's prisonest.org.

49:42So, Stewart, you get the target letter. The holy wow, oh my god moment. Everything in your mind spinning cuz you know what a target letter means as an attorney. What happens next?

49:53Freaking out. You know, it's kind of funny because, you know, I being an attorney does not mean you're a criminal attorney. You know, I was civil. So, you never think about these aspects of

50:04You just turn out to be like everybody else in that situation.

50:07I am just regular Joe Schmo. I'm kicking myself. I should have known better. I'm sure that there's attorney friends that I have that would say, "What were you thinking?" You know. but I really wanted to put that thing to bed. I really thought that there was something with this escrow in the Las Vegas. And I think going back to what you asked me when they came to the door or whether I had any inclination of something. I'm not going to say that I thought that I would be a target by any stretch of the imagination. But I knew that there was I needed to extricate myself from this situation. And I Yeah.

50:39Maybe in the back of my mind I was thinking this was a way for me to get at least get myself isolated from something in the situation, right?

50:50To move away from it and to help them so that you weren't caught in the thick of it. That's right. Yeah.

50:56So, after I, you know, semi overcame the shock, literally the next day, I mean, I was frantically trying to find an attorney. And I had to find an attorney that was in the DC Virginia area that could actually This was out of the Eastern District of Virginia. It's a Richmond. Mhm.

51:13which is a pretty heavy-hitting district for a lot of the big cases that have been going on in the United States on organized crime to all these kinds of things. So, it's pretty respected district, right? so, I needed to have somebody. So, I'm looking around and I did find a relatively young attorney to pick up my case. And from that point on, I was flying I flew out to DC, met with counsel. we ended up getting a government was allowing us to have a proffer where they were basically I guess there's two different kinds of proffers. The This one they're just telling us what their case is. They're putting forth their best They're not going to give you everything, but yeah, their little booklets out and I'm sitting there with the FBI and the DOJ and everything in there for and the Postal Inspection Service guy was there and they're going, "This is this, that this is This is what you did. You were doing this. Your wires went out here and there." And I'm like, "Yeah." Mhm.

52:09Okay. And then there was nothing I did and this is I'm not trying to downplay that I made a poor decision of continuing to work with these guys. But what I did physically do was not illegal. I was not part of their thing. That's the only way they got me is my opening my mouth and saying, "Did you see the red flags?" I said, "Well, I sort of The minute I said that ties them into something called willful blindness. Yeah.

52:37Okay. Which is not a statutory crime. It is what they would use to describe to a jury that even if you didn't, you should have known, especially being an attorney, you should have known it and you looked the other way. that type of thing. You cannot get away from a conspiracy by saying you had no idea. Now, I did I know that they were creating fake documents and doing all that? No. But that doesn't make any difference. You know, you've been through the system. I have. got me.

53:05It's not mens rea. It's not mens rea where you have criminal intent and a lot of people get confused on that issue. You can be in a situation where you can have a you can where you should have known or that these should things like, you know, you and I talked about there was a law that was created that I wasn't aware of that you weren't allowed to allow an ex-felon to work in the business of insurance. I was the CEO of the company. I should have known that and I did not. And so that carried a you know, a 5-year prison sentence. So, though there's mens rea is a very complicated thing that has become something that moves further and further away cuz you can throw people into conspiracies and everything else where it becomes a lot further away from what I think the founders of the Constitution wanted it the process to be. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

54:04And once they wrapped me into a conspiracy cuz they didn't have anything on me as far as like going over all the documents

54:10and you know, got to the point where I remember coming back from the proffer sitting with my attorney and he put a chalkboard up or marker board at the pros and cons of going forward with the this case or not.

54:25He said, "This isn't the strongest case I've seen. The their case is kind of weak on their side based on the facts that we had." But he put the pros and cons. And I'm used to that cuz I've been, you know, they gave me cases. I totally get it. I also totally understand that if you're going in front of a jury you never know what you're going to get. If they don't like you for whatever reason Yeah.

The plea and the sentence

54:45you're done. So, now we get down to the brass tacks of do we plea or not? Mhm.

54:52What is what are we weighing here? Do I want to put my family through this? Do I want them to do some of the horror stories that they raid your house and they take all your stuff and it doesn't matter who's in there or not and do I have to want to go through that if I start becoming adversarial with that cuz they have all the power which is another problem, right? This is what we're talking about with justice reform. They have so much power and they have the power of the purse. So, I'm looking at this and my counsel was like, "Well, if we went to trial, it's going to cost you at least a million dollars, blah blah." And that million dollars. So, I'm thinking, "Hm, well, couldn't you get a public defender?" You know, there's a lot more to go into this. So, I'm looking at this and I'm looking at what else could they do?

55:36They could dive into all kinds of stuff. My partner that's in Africa and the stuff that he left me with and there's some things that were going on there, nothing like per se illegal, but I don't want to drag all this stuff in. And so I'm like, okay, I have to make a serious decision here. And I remember and I'm being honest, I remember sitting at the table and he's sitting there, we just had this discussion and all of a sudden it hit me like a brick, like a freight train. I mean, just like, [ __ ] what did I put myself into? What did I put myself into expose to my family? and I started to cry. Not so much bawling, you know, I'll be all like, you know, I'm a man, I don't cry. Hey, this is a reality check. This is no longer I don't know, I have a defense and I No, the reality hit me that I don't really care what you got.

56:27This is where this could go. Are you willing to go down that road? And I knew it was going to be a life-changing situation, but in my mind I was still fooling myself, oh, but when I get done, I everything's going to be normal. No, and it was at that point that I realized that I was screwed, especially you know, them tying onto a conspiracy issue and that it just one inkling that I even smelled that there were some issues, I'm done. Not that I did anything particularly and it didn't matter. So, you know, it became

57:02Yeah, I think there's two big issues talking about this steers bringing it back in my mind. I think there's like really two big moments. One, when you find out that they're investigating you. That's a big moment. Two, when you find out that you're going to be indicted. And three is trying to figure out if you're going to go to trial or if you're going to do a plea bargain. And all those moments are huge life-changing moments. And you have to go through each one of those and there's not, you know, a book and you know, a course you can take and say, "Okay, I've got it figured out." It's each every and every moment of that is just excruciating.

57:41And even the attorney mo- I'm not going to talk for every attorney out there that's a defense attorney. A lot of don't even know any They don't know any better either. They know certain attributes but they never hit a lot of the issues that we're talking about. They're just going through the motions, too and Sure.

57:56And it's just a Yeah, it's really deva- It was really devastating to have to because you know what they can do and as you know, there could be a trial penant penalty. And so, what does that mean? They got multiple counts. Let's say they were to give me a count for every single wire transfer I made. Regardless whether they're legitimate or not, whatever. They could still plea a wire charge. Let's say there's 50 counts of wire fraud. And that could They carry 10 to 20 years. Each. It'll be hundreds of years.

58:27Each. So, it's like a hundred years in prison or Mr. Anderson, you can plead and you might get whatever that is, right? Right.

58:35Three, four, whatever. So, you're now in a position where do you want to roll that dice? And do you also want to stand in the stand and be drilled for your life, everything in your life or any decisions made? You don't know what they're going to do. And I just didn't have it in me to go through that, put my family through that and it's like I had to make that decision.

58:55Yeah, and I think, you know, in the reality of things and the honesty of things is that when you get to that point, you're broke and you feel like you're in a weakened state and nothing has gone right. And so, it the to step into the next line, over the line to say, "Okay, I'm going to go to trial." And I don't really have even the dollars to go to trial and I'm going to have to, you know, wing it. It's a lot to think and you're constantly thinking it whether you get the trial penalty, whether what kind of jury am I going to get. What everything is a complete risk. And so that's why you get these crazy 97% numbers of people getting indicted, they take a plea bargain because it seems like this jury is safest and it's there's nothing that you know, it changes your life forever.

59:47It's just that you're not going to be in prison forever. So that it's that's the you know, your bargain and your trade. So anyway, it's still you get I think if I remember your story is you thought you were going to get less time.

1:00:00I know it's not a good thing to say per se, especially for people who are who end up going to prison about cooperating, right? But 99% people will cooperate if they can, especially if you're going to a camp. My cooperation is not because I'm a criminal and I would never rat on my fellow criminal issue, you know, like if you're in the mob and it's like, I'll never talk, you dirty rat, you know. [laughter]

1:00:26No, but this was like I got placed in this position by people who were doing bad things, I e these people I was working with, and my life is being ruined and they wanted a little help on what I knew or like the emails and that sort of things. So I decided to cooperate with them on that issue and yeah, maybe that would give me a little less time, maybe even like a misdemeanor. I don't know. We were hoping for something more. Now, what's interesting about this and this is something that I come to know is the government really wanted me to be more culpable. So if they were going to use me in trial against the other people, it would have been better if I was a piece of garbage that was doing all this stuff. Yeah.

1:01:13That would have been a different thing, but I was helping them going, I didn't know that or I didn't and they were getting angry at me. The prosecutor was so pissed like, you knew you're just what? You already pledged. There's no reason." I go, "I'm just telling you I didn't know." Right. I'm not going to tell you something that I didn't do. Right. Just to say I did it and I didn't like that. Which happens a lot.

1:01:36Yes. And so they were they wanted to use me for trial and at the end they're like, "We can't use this guy cuz he's going to get tore up by The defense counsel is for the other people are probably going to bring up X, Y, and Z." And at any rate, that's what end up happening. I worked with them a bit on some of that stuff. Just emails and who's what and that sort of thing to help up them out. But in the end it didn't save me. What was interesting though is that I was sentenced in December. I pled in November. I was sentenced in December. Very short. Mhm.

1:02:06But they let me go to Rome for a month during the month of December. That is interesting. Italy. Yeah, we had a family trip to Italy. But you leave the company or the country?

1:02:15And I remember that the prosecutors telling me, "If you try and escape, you're not going to get away. We'll find you." And I'm like I laughed at him. I said, "Really? You really think I'm going to flee?" Yeah.

1:02:25I said, "This is a religious thing, you know, I'm Catholic and we were going to the Vatican and we're going to the, you know, blah blah." And it's like this is a family trip we had and I had to show proof that we already had it booked and all that. And they actually let me go. Now you would think, here's a guy who goes comes back. You think he'd give me a break or something. I mean, I'm not trying to get away with anything. But they didn't They did not. So, Stewart, what was it like for you to go to prison?

1:02:50Well, it all started when I was sentenced and I gave my allocution. Basically throwing myself on the mercy of the court, apologizing for my to my family, to the country, to the state of Virginia. You know, I let people down. my attorney of me being an attorney, etc. And the minute that I finished and I remember saying in open court, it wasn't any really anybody in there. There's one gentleman in the back of the room. my brother was here to speak on my behalf, but other than that, there was a gentleman on the back of the room, he happened to be a reporter of some sort that report about these cases. And the last thing I said was thy will be done. That's what I told the judge. In other words, I gave it all up. Thy will be done. You're the god of the You're the god of this corporate and contrary to what I think people think, I had a very I had the chief judge of that of Richmond and he was a ex-Marine, very staunch guy.

1:03:49He wasted no words. When I finished saying thy will be done and before my echo stopped in that room, he rendered my sentence. So, he already knew what he was going to do. My point is that most 99% of the time they already know what they're going to do. It doesn't matter what you say or what your counsel says. Once it's Once you're in that letters you got.

1:04:09matter. None of that had all the letters, whatever. And he didn't he just immediately rendered sentence. 48 months boom. Now, the prosecutor wanted me to have more and he is like, well, he only helped us he should only get like 10% and the judge actually pushed back a little bit and said, no, he didn't he did more for you than that. I'll give him 15 per So, variance down, they gave me a little bit down and then but still 48 months. my attorney's mouth dropped open. I was like, 48 months and it didn't calculate in my brain. that's 4 years. I thought I would get a year. Like my counsel never really thought that they would hit me like that and they did and I remember walking out of the courtroom and then the prosecutor looks over to me.

1:04:58Good luck, Mr. Anderson. Took everything not to the flip him off, but [laughter]

1:05:03you know, he's doing his job, I guess. I don't know. I don't want to hold any ill will. I remember going back real quick when before the proffer and this is a psychological thing. This goes back to what we're talking about. Mhm.

1:05:15I was walking up and then someone from the DOJ was there, the prosec- the prosecutor himself, and they were walking me into the building to go up the elevators, and the gentleman turned to me and goes, "Nice to meet you, Mr. Anderson. We know a lot about you." Mhm.

1:05:29Mhm. Just hung in the air. "We know a lot about you." And I'm just like, "Okay." That was just the impetus for everything that we've talked about. That just kind of steamrolled forward. Everything else that happened, right?

1:05:43So, I was able to self-surrender, which is good. I was able to pick Yankton. I picked Yankton. I did a lot of research. If I was to go anywhere, I would have gone to Lompoc, which would have been closer to where I live, but I wanted something more mon- monastorial, like a monastery. I wanted to kind of like be away from stuff. This is a standalone, right? It used to be a college. And it's in the middle of the town, South Dakota. I mean, okay. I was I chose that. We asked the judge, and he said he would put a recommendation, but as anybody would know, or if you don't know, the BOP makes that decision regardless what the judge says. It's There's availability or not. they did not let me They did not okay our DAP or anything.

1:06:33So, none of that was set up, even though that's an RDAP area.

1:06:37For those listening in the Cayman Islands, RDAP stands for residential drug alcohol? Drug and alcohol program, yeah.

1:06:46But you get a year off by taking this 9-month course on rational behavioral thinking. Right. Cognitive therapy. Cognitive therapy. That's correct. Yeah. Yep.

1:06:57Just going back to this so everybody knows what that is. We just talk about it like it's a thing. But that was the only thing for a long period of time, and now that there's the First Step Act, there's a lot of other things that go into being able to get time off besides getting into a program like that.

Prison and isolation

1:07:13But when I went in, not only did I not have the RDAP, First Step Act was not implemented yet. And it was COVID. So, bad time to go into prison. Yeah.

1:07:25Not that there's ever a good time, but having the ability to close everything up, lock everybody down, take your commissary, take your visits, take your phone calls, all those things that you keep you somewhat in a routine and connected was all shut down during COVID.

1:07:43It was not a camp. It would everybody who's been who was there who who's come from the higher up facilities would say it was like a medium as far as medium security. Not being to move, locked down all the time. And then it was pretty miserable. I didn't know any better what a camp should be like. It wasn't until later when it started to open up that I'm like, "Oh, wow, this is what camp's like." Yeah. You know. Yeah that's

1:08:07So, how long were you guys locked down during that time period? Almost like a year. Like as far as controlled movements. Yeah.

1:08:16Multiple like literal lockdown for like 2 weeks. People were starting to supposedly get COVID, and so they started moving people to the quarantine unit. Well, this kind of stupid. They ended up moving the almost the entire unit to the quarantine unit, which makes no sense. Why don't we just stay in our own unit? We're I did get into the RDAP is what I'm saying. I end up getting into RDAP. Okay.

1:08:38Once I got there, I was able to smooth talk my way into it. Plus, to be honest with you, they make money on every head that goes in RDAP. want people to go in there if they've got room.

1:08:47It's 30 or 40,000 dollars a head. So, if I'm in a gray area, which I was kind of in the gray area of getting in RDAP, I was able to talk my way into it and they brought me in. And thank God, that was a year off. Like you said, 9 months year off and going to the cognitive therapy thing. And then the first step act kicked in after about the first year, right? We're starting to open up the first step act starting to kick in, and that was huge. Everyone was very happy about that. How did you do cuz you were long ways from home mentally?

1:09:15Yeah. I the COVID really messed things up for visitation, right? Mhm.

1:09:21There was no visitation. And then when they did open up for partial visitation, it was like 3 hours only behind Plexiglas, no touching with a mask. Now, for people who went to Yankton who were from the surrounding area or surrounding states, so to speak, where they people could drive to see them, maybe not a big deal. I mean, it still sucked, but it wasn't a big deal. I have family coming from California. Mhm.

1:09:47They actually had tickets and everything ready to go. I had my mom and my aunt, the wife, my son. They're all going to come and see me, but when that locked down, I told them, "Don't even bother." And when it opened back up, I said, "Don't bother." At the 3-hour thing. I'm like Mhm.

1:10:01You're going to spend all that money and time, and we can't touch each other, can't hug each other, nothing. I would rather not see you than have you suffer, me suffer. I said, "I don't I don't want to do that." [clears throat] It eventually, not until maybe 4 months before I was going to be released anyway, did it fully open, so to speak, maybe 5 months. Wow.

1:10:20But that So really your whole time of doing your time, you were in some form of a lockdown. One or another. Yeah.

1:10:28One or another. And of course there was a there was the proverbial lockdown for something that happened in some higher security area, something to do with MS-13, people got killed, blah, and they locked every federal facility down for like a week and a half. Like you had to stay in your room. They brought food to the room. That happened, and it that was piled on top of the it happened twice, and that was piled on top of the COVID nonsense. So, it was very difficult, yeah. Now, once it started opening up and then people you know were playing softball and you're doing things and you're working out, that helped tremendously. That's different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:11:09Still don't have your freedom, but at least you got a routine of some sort and you're being outside. Right.

1:11:14So, when you started thinking about getting out, and you got close to your getting out the door, close to the door, what were you thinking, Stuart? That date on leaving was constantly moving. Moving.

1:11:30trying to implement the first step act, and from what I understand, they still have issues on a case-by-case on a facility-by-

1:11:37So, that caused its own anxiety all to itself, just not knowing.

The punishment after release

1:11:41I should have been out earlier based on how the FSAs would have worked. But, once it was locked, they just locked in the date, and it didn't matter. You didn't accumulate more like you should have been the whole time up to that date. They stopped giving you any more. And so, I mean, I just get I knew it was coming. And so, it was like July I remember July 1st, and I was released on July 1st to the halfway house. So, I was able to fly to the valley. Unfortunately, it was the valley up in LA because the halfway house down in Orange County was full. So, they sent me up there, which I don't live up there. What year was that? 22, July. Okay.

1:12:21And I got off the plane. my wife, son, and one of my friends was waiting there. It was wonderful. I had maybe an hour and a half to go grab some Subway sub somewhere, and they had to drop me off at a very short window to get to the halfway house and check in.

1:12:37Yeah, I want to talk about that for a minute because that is something that we don't ever spend enough time on. The stress level cuz everybody on that once you're free, you think you're free. It feels like you're free. They don't really understand that you're still an inmate and if you don't get to where you're supposed to go in that hour and a half, they can cause a whole world of trouble for you all the way to sending you back to prison. That's right.

1:13:06And there it's a strange stress level like you feel good about wherever you get to and you know, like my place my you know, everybody came over to my house, but the whole time I was thinking I've got to get out of here. I got to get down to this Dismas house halfway house or I'm going to get in trouble. And that's like you've got this thing going on in your head and your head's just spinning because you've just been released and the next thing you're thinking about is this unknown thing that you don't know what you're going into and you better get down there pretty quickly so you don't get in trouble. It's weird it's a weird dynamic in your mind.

1:13:42Very weird and knowing what I know after going through that trauma, especially the halfway house. That's a whole other story. I would have stayed at Yankton until I would have went straight to home confinement. I was supposed to go to home confinement within I want to say within 2 weeks or something like that of being at the halfway house, they would send me home. When I got in there, they were being very difficult and not let me leave. They wanted me to get a job first before they would release me and I'm telling them Mhm.

1:14:11I don't live up here. You want me to go to this McDonald's over here, get a job when I don't live here. This isn't my area.

1:14:17I said I had my home confinement date is on this date. I should be out of here and it came and went and I fought and I finally got it got the head lady who ran the halfway house cuz she was very difficult to get a hold of to see to hear my case and she said, "You're right. You do not need to stay here." And so how long had it been? About almost 2 months. Yeah.

1:14:39And I finally got released and I went down to the halfway house. I still had to go to the halfway house, but I went to the halfway house in Worcester County and all they did was process me. So I spent about 3 hours in the processing, put an ankle monitor on, and then I finally walked into my house. That was a very That is People don't realize that's very traumatic. I mean, it's not fun. There's Oh, but you're out and you're all excited. No. Yeah. No, it's miserable. A lot of anxiety. And even being at the house I'm happy I was at the house. Mhm.

1:15:11But the restrictions in that and having to check in and then I had to do the T DAP stuff or what they call a post R DAP. So, I had to go to these counseling sessions every week and that you had to do these very specific schedules per week and you needed to hit exactly that unless you're You had to let your PO know if your PO officer there's any changes whatsoever and they can deny you. So, it was You're still being controlled big time and wearing the monitor.

1:15:39I'm glad you're talking about all that because I don't think we talk about that enough on the show that all the things that happen once you get out and then you're still having to say, "Hey, I'm back. I'm And then you've got all these barriers to employment and housing and all that. working with a

1:15:54licensing and all these other things. And you're dealing with still some of the BOP requirements, still some of the R DAP requirements, still some of the house the home confinement requirements, still some of the things going back to the halfway house. You've got like a like just all kinds of stuff that's spinning in your head to try to get back into society.

1:16:11The only thing you get, in my opinion, is you're get to be in your own bed. You get to be with your family in your house, which I'm not going to say I didn't love that. Yeah, I love that, of course. Yeah.

1:16:23But it's still this like control mechanism. And someone that was in your situation or mine or other white-collar folks, for example, and I'm not saying that someone who's not white-collar deserves anything worse, but come on. Why am I wearing an ankle monitor on a conspiracy to commit wire fraud and treated like that? it's kind of like when you talk about people who have the FBI raid their homes with their guns drawn on a white-collar issue. I mean, why? What message is that? Why do you need to do that? It's overkill, for sure. Yeah. The con-

1:16:56Yeah, the and the it's there there's there is really no reason. It's just that they take everybody and treat them as the same. And it's part of, you know, the part of the huge story of why the system's broken. So, Stuart, you I want to talk about what you've gotten into now cuz I know the guys that you're with and let's talk about that. How let's talk about Look, how did it come about and what you're doing now?

Rebuilding a name

1:17:23Well, it's really interesting, you know, I've been out for years now and I've been trying to get a {quote} "regular job." Probably applied to over 600 plus professional positions. Obviously, not as an attorney, but focusing on like contract management, contract administrator, that type of a job cuz that would make sense, right? With my legal background in contracts and that stuff.

1:17:45Yeah, which is so crazy to think that there's that much of a barrier. It is.

1:17:50That you know, you didn't The only thing that's changed is that you have been federally convicted, but you served your time and they you still have your brain and you're still able to do a lot of functions that people can need and then there's that barrier that oh, we don't do that.

1:18:08Now, if you have connections with people that know your situation, could you get a job like that? yeah, but in a regular corporation that's like a publicly traded type corporation, Yeah. it's not going to happen. Right.

1:18:21I had some offers. I had some really good offers for what they were. And I think one of the big things because of my background, because I have professional background, I've had all these licenses, I mean, it's not and no offense to somebody who doesn't have a law license, for example, or whatever professional license. I- I was into in a drug related case and I came out, I could probably do better going into something from truck driving to, you know, blue collar type of job. It would be it's a lot easier to get into those because they kind of go, "Yeah, you had a drug thing, you're okay now." and you know, you served your time. When you talk about white collar, when you talk about anything that has the big F word, fraud, Mhm. Fraudster.

1:19:04you are absolutely persona non grata no matter what. They will not want to touch you. And unless you know somebody who has a company that would allow you in there, it's near impossible. So, I have been trying and then people would look at me and go, "Why are you applying to this job?" Because really the jobs I'm looking for are more of a support role. So, if having my degree would put me in a VP level {slash} you know, a director plus whatever, I'm coming in as an admin of something. Why? You have all this experience and you're So, now I'm like messing around with my resume, downplaying my legal stuff, trying to take some of that off. And it's like I'm trying to hide as much as I can, but still show that I have the ridiculous. So, with the white collar group that I got connected to and I wish I recommend anybody to definitely hook up with the white collar group. These are fantastic. I've met you, I've met a lot of great people.

1:20:00I've helped a lot of people on there. It's not all about me getting something. I mean, I talk to people who need who are hurting and this that and the other. But there's a lot of resources there. So, I hooked up with them and trying to navigate my own emotional {slash} job related what position. And it just so happened that one day I was wanting to talk to Lucky Ot, and so I gave him a call. We had a great talk and next thing I know he was telling me about what [snorts]

1:20:27this thing that him and Steve Keller were putting together in the justice reform arena based on various pillars that they wanted to do. And of course, I'm all about that. I lived it. I see it. Never thought of really working in this arena. Although, to back up, I did work for about 8 months in a nonprofit called Impact Aid, which is a white-collar placement place for people who are coming out of prison. So, I have a little bit of experience starting to get a little experience working for the nonprofit. got to throw that out there. So, this just happened to segue perfectly. I already had some experience in the nonprofit. Here we are with a nonprofit come up to do much more than even the Impact Aid. It This is a strategic view. This is changing policy to help everybody who's been through the justice system. Non-political. It doesn't matter whether you're Democrat, Republican, left, right. This is These are issues that need to be addressed one way or the other. And so, he said, "Hey, we've got this going on." And then it just morphed into doing a lot of work non-paid to build this nonprofit. And now we formed the nonprofit, and we're placing everything together, media, everything, as you know. And it's going to be a powerful

1:21:42you guys have done a lot. You guys have done a lot in a short amount of time. And it's called the Justice Restoration Foundation. And you know, with what you guys have set out to do and how you want to do it and the people the team that you're putting together, I think great things are going to happen with the connections that you guys are making.

1:22:02I mean, Steve's out there with his book, and he was absolutely

1:22:06Yeah, he was at Pay to Play, and he was absolutely wronged. And if anybody has not read that book, you should go read that book.

1:22:11It's a great book. I before I had him on, I read that book and didn't put it down until I was done with it.

1:22:17And I'm looking at his I'm looking at his situation, and his situation is completely different than mine, much worse in some respects.

1:22:26Mhm. So, very Yeah, very telling. Well, I'm just glad you've you found a lane, Stuart, and it it's you can check all the boxes off of everything that you can add to this organization and your life experience, business experience, legal experience, everything fills those voids and man, it's to see a bunch of guys get together and decide that this is going to be a passion of theirs is very I'm enthused about it, inspired by it. I And the other thing is you got as you've done all this stuff here, everything under the sun is a book that you've written, you've given to me. I I'm going to be reading that, but when do you think that book will be out?

1:23:12I'm in the process of getting an agent on that. it's being read by a couple right now. I don't know yet. Worst case scenario, one of our team members on the foundation has his own publication. I mean, self self-publish. Either way, it was the book itself is it's about my time at Yankton, going my background and going in some of the same things that we discussed, but it's a deeper than that. It's not a book just about another prison book, like I went to prison, this would happen, I came out, and everything's great now. That's not what the book's about. The book is about losing everything and re- deconstructing yourself, taking a look at yourself, not only going through the cognitive therapy program, and I think everybody should go through that regardless of where you are in life because you'll start looking at yourself and decisions you've made and how you It's a very good spiritually, philosophically looking at all of those factors, coming out the other end to really try to find out what's important in life. What is truly important in your life? is your status? Is your job? Is money the little g God? Is that really what's important, or is it family? Is it I'm not saying you can't have those things, but always come back to what is really important in your life. Yeah, your roots, your foundation.

1:24:30I'm hoping that there's universal truths to what I'm talking about. So, it doesn't matter whether you like prison stuff or who's this guy? I mean, who am I? I'm you know, I'm not a Steve Keller who had, you know, this international whatever. But these are universal things I think anybody who reads the book there's going to be pieces of it you can go, Yeah. Mhm.

1:24:50And maybe it'll change your life. Maybe there's one little piece that will make someone think you go, okay. You know, that's important. And this book can talk to justice restoration type things, justice reform. It has parts of that. Spiritual aspects of things. The gray areas to look out for whether you're I go to a business school or a law school to talk to people to say, hey, look, this is what happened to me. Be careful. Didn't take much. Everybody What is the old adage? Everybody's like one step away from being a felon or something.

1:25:21That's right. You just never you know, these type of things. So, it's a multi-layered. That's why it's called everything under the sun. Everything under the sun.

1:25:28It all makes it one thing, but I'm it's walking through during the time of COVID taking a really deep look at myself and what's important and I again, I think this is not just about me. But it was very lethargic. I'm not going to lie. When I came out, I was taking a bunch of notes when I was at Yankton, you know, journaling and this sort of thing. And when I came home, I didn't touch it. And one day I said, you know what? I'm just going to type up my notes. I had all these notes. I'm just going to type them up. Just get them into a Word document. No order, just whatever. And then I started to look at it. I'm like, hmm. I have a start for a chapter one here. I think I'm going to do that. And it just progressed and then the chapters started to morph and then I thought of things on these different chapters and then it it's been a on and off, but it's been a good 3 years of working on the book. So, I appreciate people

1:26:16I can't wait to read it. All right, Stewart, what do you think your biggest takeaway through it all?

1:26:21I think my biggest takeaway in my life would be to really listen to what your calling is. Don't just follow the dollar for the sake of I got to make money. I have to do this. You have a passion in something and something you can connect to the money will come. Right? Even if it's not you don't have to be multi-millionaire, but you'll be comfortable. That's important. But follow your passion. Well,

1:26:49Follow something that has meaning, that has purpose. Once you do that, everything [clears throat] falls into place. Your relationships fall into place, money will come, whatever that amount is. You don't have to worry about putting food on the table or paying for No. It'll It's given to you. I also have a lot of faith and some people may watch your podcast and that would be faithless and it's okay. I mean, I can get it. But for those that aren't sometimes you have to surrender and that's what I talk about in my book. You have to surrender. Let you have to surrender to God and that doesn't mean you're giving up. That means you give up you and I think that's what Jesus said, right? Give up yourself and carry your cross.

1:27:28It's like you have to give up you and let things go and I think all of that encompasses the same kind of message.

1:27:36Yeah. I like the fact of finding your purpose and that will find so many things to make your happiness happen. and that's what I was going to say. So Don't just chase something to chase it because you think everybody else is doing that. That's correct.

1:27:55It's Good stuff, Stewart. I want to give a shout out to Homestead Financial who lets me use this podcast for him while the lights and cameras If you got home mortgage needs out there, Greg Yaftian is your guy. He knows all that stuff. Talking about books, go check mine out. Nightmare Success, Loyalty Betrayal, Life Behind Bars, Adapting, Finally Breaking Free. You can go to Amazon or & Noble. Leave me a review on Apple. I love those. Love to read those. And if you want to know what I'm doing, go to bretkassing.com. I spell it wrong. I spell it with a T Y, not a D Y. Go to nightmaresuccess.com. It's got more in-depth about all the different things that you won't find on Spotify or Apple. About the episodes, as I used to say to my people when I was writing my emails back and forth from Leavenworth.

1:28:40Leavenworth, stay strong. I'll do the same. Stuart Anderson, I really appreciate you spending the time and sharing your story here today. Appreciate it, Bret. Appreciate it.

1:28:47Yeah, and the best of luck to you, man. I know you got a lot on your plate getting ready to go forward. I think it's all good. my friend. I'll be seeing you a lot. That's Good stuff. Nightmare Success, in and out.